Category: Daily Living
Hello all,
Having had one dog guide and currently on my second, I was hoping that you could provide some answers to a couple of inquiries.
First, where I trained with my instructor at GDF, his recommendation was to rely exclusively on a sighted person to orient you and the dog to the route before attempting it yourself. Only if you feel 100% confident should you undertake such a task so as to avoid confusing the dog. My questions are how do you all orient to a route without sighted assistance with your dog guides? Any techniques would be appreciated. Knowing that I have a hearing impairment that interferes with sound does not mean I cannot accomplish a route, but it takes several times. For instance, when you visit a grocery store, usually you are alerted, through environmental clues such as the beeping of registers, where counters are located. I do not have this luxury. People who have lost their sight later in life are better travelers, since a visual memory has already been established. If you live in the middle of nowhere with few transit options, what do you do to make your dog active?
Thanks for any help in advance.
In addition to that, I would also suggest practicing the route several times with the cane first and sighted help if sighted help is available. Once you feel confident with the route using just your cane, then have the dog heel alongside you as you walk through the route. Once you have the route memorized, then i would say it would be safe to start walking the route with the dog guide. This way you can tell him or her where to turn. But do bring the cane. This way, in the event you get disoriented, you can still manage to figure out how to get to where you need to go without confusing the dog. HTH.
So basically, make your dog entirely unnecessary? Your trainers wants you to
walk through the route to the point where you don't need the dog, and then
start using the dog. My suggestion, get a better trainer.
If I'm going on a new route, I go through the steps of that route on a
mapping app. It tells me walk this many feet, a good one will say this many
blocks or meters or something. So I can give the dog a warning that we're
approaching the turn I want. If it turns out to be the wrong one, I praise the
dog since he did what I told him to do and did it well, then try the next one. Its
not difficult. Otherwise, if you can do the route with your cane, or you have
sighted assistance, why the hell do you need the dog?
I have to agree with that.
I don’t know about how the hearing impairment comes in to play, but even if you hear, you might not be able to find the counter, or something just by listening.
You have to go look for it.
You need some counter finding skills, so to speak, because depending on the store, it could be anyplace at all.
Sure, I’ll agree, if you do happen to hear it, that will make it easy, but that isn’t always available.
Other roots, or such are not heard, they are found, if that makes sense?
It seems to me, my dog was like a sighted person, only that I had to tell my friend where I wanted to go.
If I had a place I wanted to go I’d not been to, I would get directions just like any seeing person.
You walk 4 blocks north, Turn left and go about half a block on the south side of the street and you are there.
Okay, so me and my dog do the 4 blocks. The dog can’t count them, but I can.
The dog doesn’t know I need to turn left at the 4th block, but I do, so I say so.
I was always made to understand, before a person could train for a dog, they had to have some mobility skills, but reading several post here, I guess this is not true anymore?
If you learn a root without the dog, well, as Cody stated, what do you need one fore?
Odd training.
Don’t read me wrong, I understand that people, even the perfectly seeing have different levels of travel skills, but as a blind person, you need some basic skills, because we have to do things differently.
You can’t read the street sign, you can’t look for the green building, or the address, so you need other tools.
This GPS stuff, has help lots with that, but I don’t even use that, because I guess I never had it before, so.
Possibly if I go to a strange city, and I’ve done that too many times, I might crack it open and get the benefits.
Interesting topic.
Mapping app? Hmmm, must grab one of those.
Nathan, whoever told you to get sighted help then use the dog occasionally, is an idiot. Sorry to be so blunt, but it's true. Because, if you are going to use sighted help, why not use it all the time anyway? Don't you realize what a disservice you are doing not only to yourself, but to the dog who spent time being trained to um, you know, be your guide dog?
What cody said.
I sometimes do a route with a cane, so I can do it with a cane in the event the dog can't work. Otherwise, I train myself and the dog on the route at the same time.
Maybe I'll get someone who can see to teach it to me, other times I teach myself. It just depends on the situation.
Exactly. I think people are a bit too judgmental here. What kind of mapping app would you suggest? I do what works for me. While you may not have to rely on sighted assistance, I discover it a bit easier. What I was asking for was techniques not commentary on how a dog is unnecessary for my needs. If I did not have good enough travel skills, then I would not have one in the first place. Also, do yourself a favor, put earplugs in, and travel. Then, tell me if you can get from point A. to point B. What's interesting is that even those of you who are 100% confident become lost and disoriented. Hell, at the blindness conventions, where independence is being modeled, hundreds of blind people solicit assistance.
I think you need to read the comments again, you may have misunderstood
them. wE're not saying that you don't ned a guide dog. we're saying that if you
have to walk through a route with a sighted person, then with a cane, then rince
and repeat, all before you can use your guide dog on that same route you've
now learned by yourself, your guide dog isn't doing anything. At that point its
little more than a glorified pet. Its not serving its purpose of guiding you
because you already know where you're going. You already know the route, so
you don't use the dog. Your system of learning is effectively making your dog
useless. wE're not saying you don't need the dog, we're saying that your
training method is making the dog more and more useless the more you do the
route without it.
And yes, sometimes you have to stop and ask directions or assistance. I do it
all the time. In fact its often my default. If I'm going into a store for example,
my default is simply to ask for assistance. It saves me a lot of time. But sighted
people do the same thing, so its a moot point.
as for mapping aps, I like the one from seeing Eye myself, but a basic
mapping app on your iphone will tell you the steps. A basic google search will
give you walking directions. But the Seeing Eye one does a pretty good job of
navigating.
Ah, but Nathan did raise a good point. Many mapping apps wouldn't work for him because he is deafblind, so sighted assistance initially may be useful.
Blindsquare should work, including with a braille display. Let me know how that gets on, note though that it doesn't provide turn by turn navigation itself.
I think those of us who are just blind should be more mindful of that, adding a hearing impairment into the mix does make things way more complex, and we simply aren't qualified to judge.
I'm agreeing with Cody.
I don't use a mapping anything.
I simply get my directions, like seeing people do sometimes, before I start out.
If you know you need to go 4 blocks, turn right, go 3 blocks, or whatever, you don't need the mapping deal.
These are handy, sure, but people, even the blind and hearing impaired traveled without before.
It isn't that he doesn't need the dogt, but as Cody says, if you get all that done without the dog, you have defeated the reason you have it.
If I learn a rout with my cane, I can just walk it with my cane.
Cane travel, and dog travel are different, in that you can't feel the things you use with a dogt you do with the cane.
Example, you can't drag the dog along the curb or grass line until you find the corner, or the steps to the place.
Saying all that, maybe have the seeing person walk with you and your dog at the same time?
I'm not attacking your abilities, because I understand people have different levels. I just find it odd a trainer would suggest such a method if you have a dog.
If you have good mobility, why not just get directions?
I'm really interested for anyone to answer that question?
Seems a dog would make travel easier if you are both blind and hearing impaired, because you can put more of your time in to actually feeling were you are going, not finding it.
The dog does the guiding work. It leads you around things, stops at corners, steps and many other things.
It can even assist with traffic to a point.
So, now all you need is to keep track of were you've gone.
Hi Scarlet, Wayne, and others,
I have begun experimentation and implementation of the BlindSquare App, and I love the features. Apparently you can use this app in addition to Apple Maps in conjunction with each other. For some reason, I cannot locate the settings button after reading documentation.
Wayne, I believe I am limited not by my hearing impairment, though by my mobility. For instance, it takes me a while to memorize routes, and even then, reversing one is quite difficult. Certainly having a dog guide makes things easier for a deaf-blind traveler because of the items you already mentioned. Finding doors, chairs, stairs, curbs, elevators, and just about any other object saves time. We were taught to utilize the clicker for targeting, and if you are a dog guide user, having landmarks along a certain route helps orient you to avoid confusing the dog. As to why the trainer suggested seeking assistance before traveling, maybe it is because of my mobility? I'm not sure.
Actually, if you remember a couple of years ago, I was so against the structured discovery methodology and railed against it at all costs. However, I think it is useful to a point. I believe what Cody was suggesting is that you explore the route simultaneously with your dog, but where I become lost is how you know the right places to indicate to your dog so the he or she does not forget. What about clicker training? I mean if you hit a fire hydrant, I guess you can mark this, but traveling with a dog, tactual information is reduced significantly. Thanks for your assistance. I've been exploring with my dog the neighborhood, which is arranged in cul-de-sacs. From what I have learned, some loop around, while others do not.
You can use the clicker to indicate one specific thing among many. So like
when I was at college I used it to indicate a specific table I wanted to go to,
rather than just the first one the dog saw. You could use it to point out your
mailbox instead of the first mailbox. That sort of thing. But if you work a route a
few times, the dog will know, "Oh, last time we went in this door, he said find
the door, I'm gonna take him to this door and get treats." The dog is smart
enough to remember that and figure that out. The first time you do a route,
you'll just have to use a lot of encouragement and get lost a couple times. If
you're weak on recovering from getting lost, that might be something to work
on in a familiar area. Get yourself lost, and figure out what tools you have to
get back to where you were.
Okay. Please read this post with a grain of peace. I’m not being critical.
Your problem isn’t blind and hearing impairment. You can’t remember where you go, or to retrace your steps if I’m understanding correctly.
You don’t build in memory, for example.
I walked 3 blocks, and turned left. After that I walked 2 blocks, and my feet felt 3 driveways until I got to the point I needed to get to.
Maybe when you are using a helper, take your dog and work it as you normally would. Ask the helper to tell you when you are at your location, and get these directions before you leave.
While you are working your dog, try to think about what your feet feel.
Maybe you passed a tree, and you know that because that tree was shady, or had a branch that stuck out, or something.
Drives, how many did you cross.
The dog does the driving, so to speak, so you do the feeling, or paying attention to what you are passing, feeling, and even whatever you can hear, or smell.
If you pass the location, your helper at that time can say, okay, you’ve just passed it. Remember, it is the third driveway, or remember, after the second block, that big tree was there.
If you depend on the helper to keep taking you there, you don’t learn how it feels for the dog to take you there, so when you are alone, you don’t have any reference to follow.
As Cody stated, if you go the same place all the time, pretty soon, the dog will know exactly where you want to go, so all you need do is follow and give enough direction to get on that specific path, or rout.
When I worked dogs, I’d sometimes deliberately have them pass places we went to regularly, so they’d not get in that groove so to speak, but in your case, this will be helpful that the dog learns your places.
Now, tell me everyone, what is a clicker?
I’ve never heard of the device, nor used one.
Knowing were you are going, because you have trouble with remembering things, writing directions down so you can follow it will be helpful.
Do that as you work with your helper.
Use some method to copy the rout as you do it. Maybe your phones memo, or whatever works for you.
Now, you don’t need to remember, you just need your directions to say the store when you get ready to go there.
You’ll do your rout in sections.
Read the first section on your directions. Walk 3 blocks.
After that stop, and read the next section, turn left, and walk 2 drives.
Stop and read again.
Just some ideas.
A clicker is a little device that just makes a clicking noise Wayne. Its also been
called a cricket by the airborne of world war II. You use it in some training
systems, like GDB and others, to indicate to the dog that its done well. It is
always associated with treats. So you use it to mark a specific location and
teach new commands.
I don't have good mobility either, and because of it never even thought about a dog. But what I did do was have my helper carry a tape recorder and actually taped the route to and from. Now days, there are the digital recorders which are handy and small. Recording a route to and from does help because you can go over and over it in your mind, but practice is the name of the game. HTH.
Okay. Thanks.
Sadly, this seems to be the default setting now-a-days. On my assessment visit, I foolishly mentioned that I planned to use Satnav, directions etc to learn new routes and expand on my core ones, to be promptly told that that wasn't appropriate, and it had ruined many dogs. Sounds incredibly stupid as, if you need to work a route with a cane/sighted assistance, why have a dog anyway? I agree you need to have a clear idea of where you're going and give the dog praise whether you get lost or not to keep its motivation up, but I fail to see how, with all of this applied, the dog could be ruined by occasionally being asked to retrace a section of toure if lost etc.
It isn't that you ruin the dog, it is you don't learn to travel with your dog, or learn a new rout with you dog.
It is sort of like buying a car, but walking to work a few times so you can learn how to get to work.
As a blind person, you really need the sensory input of finding things with your dog.
What if one day you're walking that rout, but the city has decided to replace the side walks for a good portion or your rout.
Do you turn around and go home, because you have no idea how to work your dog around that new issue?
I fail to see how the avoidance of that issue would be enhanced by having done the route with a cane until you're perfect beforehand. You either know how to travel with your dog or you don't. If the sidewalks were replaced or taken out, it shouldn't matter whether it's a dog you've got on the end of your arm, or a cane. If you're capable of thinking outside the box and getting around the obstacle, then dog or cane, you'll do it. If you're not, then you'll be one of those who turns around and goes home. Your cane can't whisper to you "Hey, these sidewalks will disappear next week, so lemme show you where to go when they do". In fact, you'd probably have more chance with the dog who can see the problem and actively look for other walkways around it.
Exactly my point. You get a dog to make your life easier.
Why learn new routs with a cane at all?
Your cane is the backup, not your Cadallac.
It depends on how mobile and how well you can orientate yourself. If you are in a totally new environment, and you are not confident in orientation skills, and not good enough in problem solving, and easily get confuse, it is indeed better to attempt it first with at least a cane, or someone sighted, or having some assistant. The dog will pick up on your emotion. if you are showing the dog that you are confuse, and don't know where you are going, and disorientated, you will confuse the dog. So, in another word, it comes down to the user's confident itself.
For that reason was why I thought you had to be a good traveler before a school would give you the okay for travel with a dog.
I had to pass some test first during my application process, but I've learned, this restriction has been lifted.
Maybe this is a good thing, because more people can get the benefits of having a dog.
It will help greatly even for someone that doesn't travel well.
I don't think its a good thing Wayne. I'm going to be harsh here. Being bad at
mobility is not an excuse. Yes, you may have physical disabilities which make it
more of a challenge. Guess what, everybody on here, with the minor exception
of the few sighted people, have physical disabilities which make it difficult.
Mobility is just one of those things you have to learn. If you can't remember
navigation directions, find a way to write them down. If you can't remember
which way to go, buy a compass. This is one of those things that you simply
have to learn as a blind person. I don't accept it as an excuse.
Well, I found having a dog was better when I didn't exactly know where I was going.
It gave me the option to simply go exploring without fear of unknown areas.
Maybe I don't know a street has these turning lane deals in it or not.
With a cane, that is something I have to worry about, but not with the dog.
I've got speed, and the dog works around them if necessary.
So, sure, I agree, but I guess I feel even with less mobility skills, you'd be better off with a dog then a cane.
You have less work to do as far as were you are going, and can work on getting to your B point, not how many post are on a sidewalk, or whatever.
You can concentrate on what you are passing more then were it is.
I'm not sure if I'm explaining that right.
I know my first trainer said she loved going shopping once her dog was ready, because she could look at things in the mall and not pay attenchen to were she was going.
Lol
Wayne,
I totally understand your post. I do enjoy my dog guide, as it permits me the ability to focus on environmental clues. I believe pina colada was correct in mentioning attempting routes first with a cane. If you really do not know where you are headed, the dog will become confused. That being said, even with the most advance GPS devices, relying on one's thinking facilities is better. When I rely on a helper, they are not physically telling me directions. They are, but I never hold onto an arm or go side to guide. When learning a route the first time, I inquire about environmental clues. Then I pick out landmarks, clicker train the dog to them, and we're ready to go. She remembers very well! I guess I am not certain the intention of my post. Just was curious what others did. A dog guide is still rather challenging to receive--one still is required to satisfy and pass a home or phone interview coupled with video demonstrations of routes. Since I am a college student, the majority of what I use my dog for is on campus work. For instance, locating classrooms, E.T.C. I have discovered that with my dog, my confidence has improved altogether. I do explore but only to a point. I'm not one of those people who can memorize an entire transit system. People have varying skills and abilities, and even the most independent blind person is interdependent in some way on a sighted person for some assistance. After all, if we were created as human beings to serve only ourselves, then why are there so many inhabitants on earth? Sorry for the digression. Cody, you have valid points. All of you do. I believe you were not critical, just offering suggestions. Thank you for your advice. I also use a recording device for routes, but Wayne, as you mentioned, I do not remember all the blocks and associated information, as the dog after walking the route a couple times, remembers it. You should always have a mental picture formulated prior to travel if possible.
Even the perfectly sighted have problems as I've posted.
Getting lost or not being able to learn a rout is not a blind thing.
When I'm in doubt, I grab the nearest woman's arm and tell her to take me home.
JK.
Nathan, my strategy is to map out a new route first on Google Maps. I can get an idea of where I need to go. Then, on my walk, I'll use Ariadne GPS to call out addresses to me so I can then tell my dog where we need to go. If you have trouble with memorization, a digital recorder sounds like an awesome idea. Record yourself saying the directions. You can fast forward or rewind as you need to while you're walking the route. If I'm going into a new building, I could call them first and ask them to give me a little direction about where the counter is. If we're talking about stores along a strip, my boyfriend will call the place when he's near-by and be like, "HI, I'm here. I'm not sure exactly which store you are, would you mind coming outside?" We all have different tools. I did that when I was going to a new hair stylist in my neighborhood. Google Maps and my GPS got me to the address, but I wasn't sure which house exactly it was. I called her and had her come outside. It was a weird street, and I wasn't sure where exactly I was going. But I trusted my GPS and projected at least some confidence to my dog accordingly.
I don't like the idea of caning a route for the first time with the dog on heel. I'd rather cane it by myself and not drag the dog along with me while I flail around. I need that free hand for my phone anyway, so I can learn as I flail. That just seems like it would be confusing for the dog to be towed along like that, with no clear direction.
If you do have a phone, you could always try telling SIRI, or the assistant of your choice to give you walking directions to <address>. Sometimes it can get confusing if you're in a weird area, but it's another tool to consider for in-the-moment direction prompting. I know we rely on technology a lot today, and some institutions certainly frown upon that-- but whatever makes it easier and gets you to your destination.
I believe there is even an app that will vibrate your phone to give you
directions. In case you're worried about not being able to hear your phone in
public.
Hm, I wonder what this application is called? I've heard of the haptic shoe, but not an app. I use BlindSquare, but do not live on or near a city with lots of sidewalks. My only option at the moment is walking around my neighborhood. Most dogs, I think, prefer not to shoreline.
Hi all, thank you for this post to the arigional poster. Seriously, thank you sense I'm getting a dog from pilot dogs. I'll be using the dog for campus traveling, part time work traveling and some other places in Abilene. I to have heard "Sadly, this seems to be the default setting now-a-days. On my assessment visit, I foolishly mentioned that I planned to use Satnav, directions etc to learn new routes and expand on my core ones, to be promptly told that that wasn't appropriate, and it had ruined many dogs. Sounds incredibly stupid as, if you need to work a route with a cane/sighted assistance, why have a dog anyway? I agree you need to have a clear idea of where you're going and give the dog praise whether you get lost or not to keep its motivation up, but I fail to see how, with all of this applied, the dog could be ruined by occasionally being asked to retrace a section of toure if lost etc." CCRC in Austin has a guide dog seminar.
There is a way to learn using a dog in places you've never been.
When I worked dogs, I used my ability to know were I was going, so the dog would take me where I asked it to.
Sort of like a sighted guide you give directions.
I sincerely feel, people that receive dogs should really know how to travel.
If you don't know how to travel, maybe you should stick to using your cane and such to learn how.
I know everyone doesn't have the same abilities, but I really think you do yourself more harm by getting a dog, then depending on that dog to fix your travel problems. It won't work.
Even traveling with a cane, you have specific things you know to do when in a place you've not been.
But, I said my say earlier here.
Revisit this topic again. I think it comes down to how much a problem solver you are, and how well you can orientate yourself in a new environment. As good as a GPS system can be, there are also limitation on them. E.G. the environmental cues. let say, so use that the particular day or time that you need to go from point a to brand new place, point z. you used your GPS, all plan out to go, and the planning route doesn't work, or there are some distruption that you can't cross a street, or road blocks etc etc, what do you do, how do you solve the problem instently and reorientate yourself and the dog at the same time? if you keep going round and round and round, and getting lost, and getting stress out, your dog will be stress out more than you, and it will be amxious. in this case, it might have the possibility to put you both in danger.
Having a guide dog is not just about guiding you, it is also about the whole team work, trust, bonding, and lots more that goes in to it.
As a personal point of view, especially for the first time dog user, or even for a new dog, I will say, not to attempt any new routes with your dog for the first 6 months of the relationship, and really work on those familiar routes, working on having you trusting the dog, and the dog trusting you, and get the confident up for both you and the dog. Until you are sure that you are 100% comfortable with the bond, with the way the dog works, and you have at least 90% trust on the dog and it on you, then you can try it out.
Even with that, i'll only you to try it out with confidents and good well orientation and problem solving skills. If you have bad orientation skills, and you are not good problem solver, i'll advise you not to attempt any new route first time with the dog at least for a year in to your relationship.
Remember, it is always the same old saying, and I believe it fully, with my experience of having 3 guide dog. It might takes 12 months to train a dog, but you can break those training in a week.
Better do the right thing than sorry,.
I do not think GPS should be used to learn routs on its own, but it can be a good compliment to your natural mobility skills. I have my watch tap me when I need to make turns when I do use it, or I will use blind square to explore my city, but I don't feel that GPS is any tule that should be used on its own. ALso, some schools are better than others at mobility screening if you know what I mean.
Here's where I use GPS a lot.
I realize not everybody is like this, but the older I get the more I find it difficult to remember how many blocks I walked, or some other small detail. So I just keep BlindSquare in my ear if I am traveling long distances and have it set only to announce upcoming street crossings.
I don't even use it for the entire duration, sometimes just on a long stretch, or bring it up if I have forgotten how many blocks I've gone and don't have an ambient clue to give me a hint.
I really find using announcement of upcoming streets to be hugely helpful. I haven't ever tried using turn by turn, except to look at directions ahead of time.
Okay, I've got a dumb question here, and it's sorta been said already by Moonspun but I think it bears pointing out.
At the end of the day, your goal is to get from point A to point B safely.
Why in the blue hell does it matter if people use, or even overuse, GPS and the like, so long as they're remaining safe?
You didn't get the dog because it was going to tell you which street was where. You didn't get the dog because it's able to tell you about local restaurants or bus stops. You got the dog for any of a dozen and a half reasons, but it seems to me that having other tools to help you, dog or no, is simply a win-win scenario, so long as you can pay enough mind to your animal that you're not splitting your attention too many ways.
So where's the downside? Seriously. I don't get it. Even if you plan every single bit of a route turn by turn, why is this a bad thing?
I mean, I suppose it means that if you rely too heavily on it, and it's not there, then you might be screwed. But this is true for the dog itself. Rely on it too heavily, and if you're lacking good mobility skills on your own and your dog can't work, then you're fucked. Or if your dog just happens to have a bad day, because dogs do have them.
I dunno. I figure that so long as you are prepared for contingencies, it's fine to use whatever tools you think are best for the job as long as you're doing it safely.
Agreed with Greg / Shepherdwolf.
Further, no matter who you are, there are ideologues and theorists who will criticize.
Do what works.
I don't think a GPS makes any difference when working a dog.
I gave it some thought, and as long as you aren't packing one of these large units, and are directing the dog, I'm not sure why it would be a problem.
Now, if you come to an obstruction, or something, well, sure, you'll need to direct your dog around it, but you have to do that anyway even when you are free to go where the GPS says.
If the voice on the thing was always talking, that might be distracting.
I don't know. I never really use them now when I don't work a dog, but have experienced them.
Bear in mind, I've never used a dog.
I get what people say about being able to tell what's in your environment, just like you can when walking with someone sighed. Slopes up and down, relative distance in feet, yards, blocks, or whatever you do. Presence or absence of life forms like grass, trees, bushes, etc. although some of that will be limited if the sighted person is taller than you. You wouldn't have that limitation with a dog.
But, are there not a few things you can kind of tell better if you walked a route with a cane?
You can hear the difference between grass and a parking lot / driveway on your left, and gauge the width and thereby guess what it is. But the proverbial white stick - or even tree branch if you must - will be precise in letting you know where something starts and stops.
I don't know. But it seems you must rely much more heavily on your environmental senses with sound if using a dog, just as you do when taking someone's arm.
For me, at least, that particular ability has lost definition with time. Mine still more than works, but isn't as hot as it once was unless I stop taking my seizure meds. So to a point, I can understand how people might look at an environment, especially where there's lots of less-audible obstacles, waving the white stick instead of using a dog.
I'm positive there's a lot I don't know, but just a thought from a different perspective.
When you use a dog, all that obsticale stuff sort of goes away.
You know you are passing a tree, or a bush, but when you are passing it.
You can feel driveways and such with your feet.
When you come to a corner, or what appears to be, your deog stops.
Feel with your feet and you'll know you are at the curb, or on one of these ramp things.
Even now I use a cane, I don't really care how many poles, trees, bushes and such are on that street. I'd have them all removed if I had it my way.
Laughing.
Think about how it is when you are walking with your wife. It be really similar to that.
Ah that's a good explanation.
Sure, the only thing is the dog wont say, okay, steps or something, and maybe she doesn't either.
However, you know you are coming to go inside a building. The dog stops at the steps, so you know that is for a reason.
Door, steps. Same with your wife, she pauses a beat, but maybe not totally, so you know.
Her body moves up and so does the dogs when you are going up.
These things you already know about when you travel how things are kind of.
If your wife doesn't know you want to go in to the next building, you have some discussion about it, so she knows. You do the same with the dog, but with your voice and hand to let it know you wish to go inside a building that is coming up.
For this reason I say, if you already know how to travel, or have travel skills, adding a dog to that is much like adding a sighted guide. You don't need to be feeling all that stuff at all.
Smile.
It is really slick actually.
So if your GPS says the door is 50 feet and on the left, you don't worry about 50 feet, you have a discussion with your dog about how you want to go inside is all.
When it sees the door, it takes you to it.
So, you really don't need a GPS to tell you were a door is.
Here’s an argument against using GPS with a dog that might help.
I’ll use Leo and his wife again to make a couple points. He’ll not mind, right? Smile.
Folks are creatures of habit. We mainly go to the same collection of places, shops, restaurants, work, school, like that. Now and again, we go to a place we’ve not been.
Add a dog to that mix, and you can just take a walk and explore much like Leo can with his wife.
In a shopping mall or whatever they’ve not been, he doesn’t worry much about obstacles, and such and just enjoys listening, smelling, or experiencing the mall. His wife sees all that other stuff and guides him around it.
It gets to the point where you can tell your dog let’s go to the liquor store and while going, you only need to add a few directions. It doesn’t know liquor store of course, but once you get in the general area, it can see the store, so knows where you want to go.
Maybe the coffee shop, and the barbers shop are in that same strip, so you communicate to the dog which one you want, just like Leo does his wife. If she turns in to the barbers, but he wants the liquor store, he says so.
If you buy Coors beer, and most stores keep the same beers, and such in the same coolers, your dog will get so it takes you to the door the Coors is in.
You can say, beer, and go to that cooler.
You know how Coors feels, so you reach in, find your tall cans, and say, okay let’s go to the counter, or nothing at all. Your dog knows you want to go pay. If you aren’t ready to pay, then you have a discussion with your dog that you want to go get some whiskey and you know it is to the left, so you say so.
You bring your beer over, pay, and say, let’s go.
Just getting the bag, or whatever and picking up the handle of the harness is enough.
Like Leo’s wife, when he’s out with her, he’s talking to her, and she can see and hear, and make decisions too.
If he praises her, tells her what a good woman she is, and how pretty she is, and gives her a pat now a then, he’ll make her happy, and she’ll wag her tail and not get him hurt. An example of that is maybe the liquor stores in the middle of a T section, so not exactly at a corner with 4 street crossings. You come to that T section, and need to cross it. You listen and say, let’s go, but a car pulls out a way down the block after you’ve decided to go. The wife sees that, so she doesn’t take Leo cross the street until that car passes. After that car passes, Leo doesn’t need to tell her again to cross she just does.
She might not even cross that street in a straight line, because the liquor stores a bit to the right, so she’ll go at an angle to get to the door.
If you are going someplace you’ve never been, you get directions before you start, and once in the general area, Leo has some discussion with his wife.
Maybe they are walking, and they walk 2 blocks to State street, and need to make a left to get to the restaurant they like, but the Chinese places is on the corner of State. Leo knows exactly when they get to State, because he can smell it, so knows they’re going to turn left now. He doesn’t count blocks because his wife can see State street, and he can smell the Chinese. While walking the two blocks, he enjoys the stroll with his wife, nothing else.
If he’s constantly listening to his GPS and not communicating with his wife, soon she’s going to say, can you put that damn things away? I can see where we’re going, and I need you to talk to me instead of that thing.
She’ll be looking at other men, and possibly run him in to a post.
Dogs are smart, but they can’t say that.
Laughing.
I can see where you ruin the working relationship if you are constantly using a GPS unit instead of communicating with your dog.
They have a place, but if you are like most folks, your unit, or app won’t get used much at all if you have a dog and a good working relationship.
Just like Leo has with his wife. When out, there are just things she knows about him he doesn’t need to communicate to her, and vice versa when it comes to traveling.
Lol oh my!
Good description of how a dog works. But, well, wow?
Just had too.
Laughing.
It is just the best way to describe it as far as I see it.
I'd have used my X girlfriend, but I guess I didn't praise her enough, so got dumped.
Blame it on the GPS.
Laughing.
to answer greg's question, it is not about not able to use GPS, is about how confident your traveling skills are, while you are using a dog. If you have high orientation skills, high problem solving skills, yes, you can use GPS to assist you and the dog to find a new route, not problem for that. Only problem is that, if you have very low orientation skills, you get disorientated and stress out easily, it is not such a good idea to use it with the dog, especially, if you don't have a good bond with the dog, or you are still new to the dog. Some dog can work through it, other dogs might crack under such condition. If you have been working with your dog for say 3 years, you know what sort of things that will stress your dog up, you will try to avoid it. It is all come down to the relationship and the connection you have with the dog, as much as your orientation skills, problem solving skills, and bunch of other skills that have nothing to do with using GPS, but everything to do with you as a dog handler, and your dog as a guide.
For example, I would have put through my first guide on any kind of situation, because she can handle it, and she handles it well for sure. But, I won't necessary put same sort of situations with my current guide. She is great with what she does, but she gets stress up easily on unknown routes and infamiliar environment.
It is about, think about you, your dog, and both of your safety.
Maybe I was just lucky. I've owned two guides, and I swear, we could walk over hell and back.
My dogs never stressed, or anything at all, nor me, but that may have been my fool heartyness. Laughing.
In training however, we had a couple dogs simply break down. They just failed.
If any dog displaied any stress, the school simply took them out of the program.
I didn't have a GPS, and don't use one now unless I just want to fool around.
So, I know it is vary possible to get around even in a strange place you've never been without the luxury.
It can be a beautiful tool however.
Add a dog to your travel, a good one anyway, and you really got something.
Again, thank you all who have put your two sense and knowledge into this board. I'm at pilot dogs as we speak. I;ve recently just got hereon a monday will be meeting my gide on wins day, very excited.
So an update, I am sitting with my standered large poodle name Winston, who is just chillen beside me. Currently this friday we have a week before going home, back to work and coolege August 18. To nut shell this post, there really is a lot to learn, beeing an own is responsibility a individual must consider before getting a guide dog.
SF
so, I am home, Winston my guide dog has worked out well so far in Wal-Mart, Walgreens, I am looking forward to taking him to work and school. I love walking with my guide, honestly its a night and day walk vs using a cane.
Fair warning, its 1:00 a.m I'm just wrapping up my beginnings class assignments so my brain is mush. Okay, my guide dog and I are really getting along, he's finding curbs, doors ETC at work and school. At this stage of my life I am glad the cane was put aside until needed and I'mm using a guide dog. In short tasks I find easier to do, finding doors, finding tables, staying straight when crossing trfic. I know I'm missing more at this point.
Congratulations. Winston! And I think poodles don't shed much, that will be nice.
`
sorry for last post
Nathan. I hope you found the answers you were looking for.
I quickly skimmed over the replies and a few things I do myself.
I use my phone and GPS a lot when I first moved to Raleigh to learn my way around. I sometimes may have had to stop and pull over to pay more attention to the GPS and other times could use it on the fly.
You are not so focused on your GPS to the point that you are completely ignoring your dog. If anything it helped us because I could help direct my dog in to the right dirrection while she kept looking up at me as if to ask, "where are we going?"
I use the GPS on the bus and yes, sometimes while being driven to be sure the driver is going the right way if I feel as if I am having issues.
I have no problems learning new places on my own and without my cane but think the use of the cane is still important.
Most of the routs and ways of Raleigh I have learned fully on my own, with my dog, no sighted aid and I did not go over them with a cane prior to learning them with my dog. I just jumped in and went at it.
I used my GPS at times and would ask for directions from people with others.
I do not think there is a wrong way of doing it. Just do what works best for you and your dog.
My dog has learned our usual places and i named them to help her understand what shop we are going to. This helps when she gets it stuck in herhead we are going to the bus stop when in fact we are going past and to a shop down the road.
Side note: I have named the bank Beth since that is the lady I see most working there so I am not telling everyone around me i am off to the bank. I tell my dog "Let's go say hello to Beth" and she knows where to go.
I used this for some shops too that have the same workers we visit with.
Going in to a shop, my dog can find a counter if I tell her "counter"...
Something she does I find a bit funny is that when she knows we both are lost, she will take me up to a person as if to say "Hey, neither one of us has a clue, ask for help".
This has once led me to a strangers house who must have just stepped in dorrs or something when we were walking threw a neighborhood.
HTH
cool, these experiences are very encouraging to new guide dog user such as me. Raleigh NC, I used to live there for about 9 years. Just left to return to home "Texas".
SF
Guide Dog name is winston the yanky dudal sweet poodle.
Dan Mathis
It seems to me, that this idea would have already been mentioned in the previous post.
Maybe it is, I did not read them all, however I have a small suggestion if it has not been
mentioned before.
So, having been blind my entire life and having no hearing impairment to speak of, I
cannot say for sure if it will work. However, I do have to agree with certain posts that
state if you already know the route then you are essentially damaging your dog training.
See, dog training works on reinforcement, if you already know the route then there is no
sense of teamwork. It is a scientific fact that animals especially dogs are attuned to
human emotions. So, what could essentially happen in this type of situation is that your
dog will eventually lose interest in his or her job, and therefore become slowly but surely
more and more unreliable. This is not the dogs fault and it is not your fault, it is simply
that there will be a lack of positive reinforcement. So, my suggestion would be tactile
maps. You still would have to get cited assistance, but we realistic, most people who are
blind and probably a larger number no offense who are deaf blind will have to rely on
cited assistance for certain things. So, my idea would be to get a sighted person to help
you draw a tactile map which is a map with race line is that you can trace with your finger.
This map will accurately to the best of your abilities and your cited friends ability reflect
the streets around where you live. Find a way to designate landmarks, for example a
store that you like to visit on the corner you might mark with a certain object a certain
shape that would signify the store being in that location, then you can mark other places
you go, and make sure you mark your house. After this map is John you can then
approximate roots by looking at your map of course, you should always be careful and
keep in mind that you need to be aware of your surroundings and personal security. If you
do not feel safe walking somewhere, it is no shame to ask somebody to walk with you.
That is simply precaution
And look at this post, I come across as looking like the zone BBS crossing guard. LOL
No, believe it or not, you could probably train your dog to take you to the checkout
counter in a store. It would be fairly simple, you would use the command like it is time to
go, or maybe let's go check out, or whatever you choose. The point is, if you use this
phrase repetitively, and right after you say this phrase you take your dog to the checkout
counter, your dog will eventually associate the phrase with the walking to the checkout
counter. Once your dog has gotten the concept, used to train message of positive
reinforcement. Positive reinforcement requires only at three or four dollar clicker, and a
bag of dog treats. It's really simple to, when your dog does what you want him or her to
do in this case take you to the checkout counter, you would click the clicker and give the
dog a treat. Of course, things like this happen and slow steps. It is the old saying you
have to crawl before you walk, and walk before you run. Your guy dog should not be
considered a glorified pet. As a matter of fact, your dog should be way more to you,
because in a situation where you are walking around it is very likely that your dog will
hold your life and its hands or Paws if you prefer. This means, that your dog is not just a
dog, your dog is your teammate and you have to rely on your teammate just as your
teammate will have to rely on you. Don't get worried though, because the good news is
that dogs especially guy dogs are usually really intelligent. Furthermore they've been
highly trained, so most of the work is already done for you. All it takes on your part is a
little bit of refinement see back to the positive reinforcement, and some love and care and
your dog will take very good care of you.
I disagree with above poster that you knowing the route you are damaging the dog's training and the team work. In fact, having certain rutine and certain familiar routes help both you and the dog to bond, especially at the very first 6 to 12 months of the partnership. there are dogs that can consistant adapt to new environment, but you will find that most dogs will struggle, especially when the team is still relatively new, when you haven't establish the bond. and, more so when you yourself aren't familiar with the new route, and you are hoping your dog will guide you through the route, it is a lot of responsible for the dog, and it is a little unfair to the dog. Of course, again, when you are 6 months on, when you and your dog have establish a certain partnership, and have good bonding, when you both can trust each other well enough, then you can be more adventure for sure.
Absolutely. GEB recommends sticking to familiar routes, if possible, when you are first home with a new dog. Dogs enjoy being out, no matter if it's a new route or not, if they feel they're doing a good job for you, they're happy.
I love them so much and I know a dog would make O&M so much easier for me, but from what I've observed, a handler is supposed to talk to the dog in this cheerful, baby talk kind of voice most of the time. That's not me at all.
You talk to your dog in your normal voice if that is how you are. Some folks just do it because it is personality.
Lol, "guy dogs".
My dog and i go on many of the same routs and she is not compermised by this. infact, there are good reasons to take her even on paths I know well enough.
She helps keeps me strait when crossing roads and driveways.
She keeps me from running in to poles and these odd lamp posts that stands about 5 feet tall.
She keeps me from running in to people or tripping them up.
She keeps me from getting over welmed when trying to cross roads and some dumb ass blasts by with their overly too loud truck, bike or car.
She helps me find the door, stairs and bus stops faster than i would myself.
So even though we go the same places and i know where to go, it does not ruin her training. In fact, if we are in a new place and she can't figure out where I am trying to take her, she gets worried and bothered. If I know where to go and can give her clear instructions, she seems to feel more at ease.
As for speaking to your dog in a baby voice.
I don't know if it really matters. Some dogs may need more of an up lifting tone but it doesn't have to be a baby voice. I think so many of us just like to treat our dogs like babies.
If I speak baby to my dog, she gets crazy silly.
If I want her to chill out and focus better, I get firm and she cuts out her rediculousness.
Haha. No, the baby speak is optional. They respond to happy tones, so a lift in your voice when you say "good girl" makes a labrador's day. *smile* They need reassurance that they're doing the right things, but it's not like you have to constantly be chattering happily to them all day. In fact, that would probably lessen the effect of praise you give.
I've been teased relentlessly by my husband, over the years, for my record breaking high-pitched "good girl"s LOL
I can be happy and not sound like I'm trying to go through a sex change.
Laughing.
Just had too.
LOL Wayne. Good one.
Hello all,
Yes, quite easy to train a dog to a counter. Did this at Starbucks with puppachinos. Finds it everytime. Of course, I do not use these as much because of the calories.